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[编纂] 洋人煮酒论三国

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2012-8-19 21:29:07

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Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion

(三國中)最好/最喜歡的國家(為什麼喜歡?)討論

投票结果:

魏国    100票

蜀国    121票

吴国     90票

         It seems like a lot of the threads about individual officers and individual events eventually turn into discussion about which kingdom is better or more powerful or more legitimate, etc. You get the idea. So I created this thread as a place for that kind of general discussion. Think Wei is the best, and want the rest of us to see the light? Post it here.

      貌似很多讨论个别人物或事件的帖子最终都变成了讨论哪个国家更好、更强大、更合法等等。說說你的想法。所以我开这个一般讨论的帖子。认为魏国最强,或者还有不同观点的,请跟帖 。


网民评论:




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by Wizardman on Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:24 am

        Which kingdom is the best?

        Shu was great with the 5 tiger generals and the 3 brothers, but after Zhuge Liang's death, everything fell apart, and even Jiang Wei was   overshadowed by Shu's downfall.

        Wu had many intelligent and powerful warriors. It took Sun Quan's death for the cracks to show in Wu.

        Wei had many good people, mainly because everyone seemed to defect there. (Zhang Liao, Zhang He, etc.) Even after the death of all these greats, Caos Pi and Rui were still good, and they still had great officers in Deng Ai, Sima Yi's sons, Xiahou Mao, and others. Even though the Sima's rebelled after Sima Yi's death, it took that to damage Wei.

        Even though I'm slightly Shu-biased, I would say Wei was the strongest during the late 3-kingdoms period easily, but it's very hard to tell who would be better during the early three kingdoms period.

    哪个国家是更强的?

    蜀有伟大的5虎将和3兄弟,但诸葛亮去世后,一切都土崩瓦解了,即使是姜维也因为蜀国的覆亡而黯淡失色 【译者注:五虎将:关羽(字云长),张飞(字翼德),赵云(字子龙),马超(字孟起),黄忠(字汉升)。三兄弟:刘备、关羽、张飞】

    吴有许多聪明和强悍的战士,孙权死后吴国出现了裂痕(派系斗争明显化?)。

    魏有很多不错的人,主要是因为每一个人似乎都有缺陷。(张辽、张颌等等)。即使这些伟大将领都死后,曹丕和曹睿也是挺好的,他们仍然拥有很好的邓艾、司马懿的儿子、夏侯楙和其他人。虽然司马懿死后,他的儿子(Sima's指的是谁?司马师?)便背叛了魏国并造反夺权。

    我稍微会偏向蜀国,我还是会说三国后期最强的是魏国,但很难说三国早期谁会更强一点。

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by Lu Wei on Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:23 am

        Shu - definately not. Down with Shu! Zhuge Liang is slightly overrated, and while he was a great politician and a above-average commander, there is just no way he could have brought down Wei with his resources.

         Wu- second favorite. Good generals, good leaders. Like Shu, teh main handicap is location. They just didnt have the resources (or EXTREME brilliance) to conquer China.

        Wei- Best kingdom. Had the talent in early days (Cheng Yu, the Xuns, Jia Xu, Dian Wei, Xiahou Dun, Cao Ren), the middle times (Xu Huang, Sima Yi, Cao Cao himself, Cao Ren, Zhang Liao) and in late (Sima Yi and co., Deng Ai, Zhong Hui). Had the manpower, the resources, and the ability to conquer China, and under a different name (the Jin) they did. Cao Cao's pure skill brought the kingdom together, held it together for a long time, and passed it into good hands.

    蜀 - 绝对不是(最强的)。打倒蜀国!诸葛亮是被高估的人,虽然他是一位伟大的政治家、出色的(原文是:略高于平均水平的)指挥官,他没有办法利用他手中的资源击败魏国

    吴 - 第二喜欢的。有好的将领、好的主公。像蜀国,主要是(它的)位置是(一道)屏障。(吴)他们只是没有资源(或极度的智慧)来征服中国。

    魏 - 最强的国家。早期就很有潜力(程昱、荀彧、贾诩、典韦、夏侯惇、曹仁),中期(徐晃、司马懿、曹操自己、曹仁、张辽)还有晚期(司马懿和司马懿集团、邓艾、钟会)。有人力、资源并有能力征服整个中国,并且他们建立了新的王朝——晋朝。


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by Sima Hui on Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:29 pm

        I'm a Shuist but I have to admit that Wei was the best.

        Generals: Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Zhang He, Zhang Liao etc

        Strategists: Cheng Yu, Xun Wenruo, Xun You, Guo Jia and of course Sima Yi.

        To top it all off is the Man himself Cao Cao. What a great kingdom!

    我是一个蜀国迷,但我必须承认魏国是最强的。

    将军:夏侯惇、夏侯渊、张颌、张辽等。

    军师:程昱、荀彧(字文若)、荀攸、郭嘉和司马懿。

    再加上驾驭这些人的曹操自己,这真是一个伟大的国家!


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by Morg on Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:36 pm

        No contest really, Wei dominated from the beginning and was probably the closest to being legitimate considering Cao Cao didn't depose the emperor, choosing instead to memorialise the emperor instead. Yes, Cao Cao controlled the emperor but at least he had some semblance of a claim to legitimacy which is more than can be said for the other two.

    沒得比較,魏從一開始就佔據了主導地位,可能是因為要考慮到維持合法的地位,所以曹操才沒有稱帝,而是選擇了傀儡皇帝代替。是的,曹操控制了皇帝,但這樣他至少要比其他兩個(吳和蜀)在表面上更具有合法性。


by Lady Zhuge on Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:47 pm

      引用 Morg 的“是的,曹操控制了皇帝,但這樣他至少要比其他兩個(吳和蜀)在表面上更具有合法性。”        

    I don't understand how Cao Cao could legitimately control and oppress the emperor. Liu Bei was a descendent of the royal line, and he only declared himself emperor after Cao Pi overthrew Xian. I have nothing to say in defense of Sun Quan, though.   

    我不明白曹操為什麼能合法的控制和欺壓皇帝。劉備是一個皇室後裔,他僅在曹丕廢除了漢獻帝後才宣佈稱帝。可是對孫權我沒有什麼好說的。




by Morg on Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:33 pm

      引用Lady Zhuge的“我不明白曹操為什麼能合法的控制和欺壓皇帝”

        Perhaps I didn't explain clearly. SGYY illustrates how Cao Cao abuses his newfound power and how the emperor wishes to get rid of him (the edict hidden in the girdle). However, from Cao Cao's point of view, he continued to be a good servant of the Han, reuniting the land under the emperor.

        Therefore, while Cao Cao was opressing the emperor he still had a claim of legitimacy.

    也许是我没有解释清楚。SGYY(三国演义)有写曹操是怎麽滥用他新发现的各种权利(以皇帝的名义镇压四处叛军,客观上也造成了自己坐大 ),还有皇帝是如何希望摆脱他(衣带诏)。然后,从曹操的角度来看,他仍然是汉朝的好僕人、为皇帝守护疆土。

    因此,虽然曹操压迫皇帝,但他仍然有权合法性。


      引用Lady Zhuge的“劉備是一個皇室後裔,他僅在曹丕廢除了漢獻帝後才宣佈稱帝。”

      Indeed but I personally feel that Liu Bei's own ambition was by far more important to him than restoring the Han. I was a very big fan of Liu Bei's until I read SGYY which managed to convince me that the man was purely out for himself as he betrayed 'friend' after 'friend'. While Luo Guanzhong firmly establishes Liu Bei as the almighty messiah of the novel, parts of the book portray Xuande in a less than favourable light which in turn can easily lead the reader to question his motives. Therefore, I am not personally inclined to believe that Liu Bei wanted anything other than to establish his own kingdom.

      Just my opinion.

   但我個人覺得,劉備自己的野心比恢復漢朝更為重要。我以前是一個劉備的狂熱粉絲,直到三國演義(裏的故事)說服了我。這男人純粹的為了自己不斷的出賣“朋友”。雖然在羅貫中的(三國演義裏)把劉備寫成了全能救世主一樣的人,書中有很多地方對劉備的描寫不太有利,很容易讓讀者懷疑他的動機 ,因此我個人傾向於認為劉備為了建立屬於他的國家而不管其他事情(可能是在指恢復漢朝亦或是其他任何事)。

   這些只是我的觀點。


     引用Lady Zhuge的“可是對孫權我沒什麼好說的。”

    I do: He had lovely eyes

    我說:“他有一雙可愛的眼睛”





by Lady Zhuge on Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:41 pm

    引用Morg的“也許是我沒有解釋清楚。SGYY(三國演義)有寫曹操是怎麼濫用他新發現的各種權利……”

    I think the key words in what you've stated above is from Cao Cao's point of view. From Hitler's point of view, he was purifying the human race and doing a good thing. Does that mean his reason was legitimate, though? Being a good servant of the Han means being a true and loyal subordinate to the emperor, not oppressing him. The only exception I can perhaps forgive would be if the emperor was corrupt and bringing great sorrow and suffering to the people, but Xian was not guilty of that.

    我认为,关键你是从曹操的角度来说这些话的。从希特勒的角度来看,他是在淨化人类做一件好事。这是否也意味着他的理由是合法的了?是一个汉朝的好僕人就意味着他是一个真正忠诚于皇帝的下属,不会去压迫他(皇帝)。我可能唯一会例外原谅的就是皇帝的腐败昏庸给人民带来了巨大的痛苦和灾难,但献帝却没有这些过失。


     引用Morg的“但我個人覺得,劉備自己的野心比恢復漢朝更為重要……”

    I guess Liu Bei's true legitimacy is a matter of perspective and opinion. While I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it. If he was truly just out for himself, I doubt he would have waited so long or even needed his advisors' persuasion to ascend the throne.Also, I do not agree that Liu Bei was less legit than Cao Cao, considering the latter was certainly not out for the good of the Han or its emperor. You could say that he was a pretty ambitious guy himself.

    我覺得劉備的正統問題見仁見智。我尊重你的意見,但並不代表我認同。如果他真的只為自己著想,我懷疑他是否會等這麼長時間或者需要他的屬下說服他來稱帝登基。還有,我認為劉備比曹操更合法,因為後者並不是為了漢朝以及皇帝著想。你可以說他是一個相當有抱負的傢伙。


    引用Morg的“他有一雙可愛的眼睛。”

    Ugh, but do they really match his supposedly purple beard?

    額,他們真的確定他(孫權)是紫色鬍子?




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by Kong Wen on Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:44 pm

    Cao Cao's claim to legitimacy was the passing of the Mandate of Heaven from the Han. He knew that Han was finished, yet he continued to try to hold the system together as long as possible while making his own changes and acting on his own. Kudos to Cao Cao for not just ousting the emperor and taking over himself.

    曹操认为汉朝的国祚将尽,自己是合乎正统的。他知道汉朝就要灭亡了,然而他仍然试图尽可能支撑下去的同时,也在不断改变自己,按照自己的决断来行事。曹操爲了名誉是不会驱逐皇帝并且取而代之的。

        Liu Bei's actions were honourable and showed loyalty, dignity, integrity, etc., but such things don't matter if you're fighting for a losing cause or for an Empire whose time has already passed.

    刘备的行为是诚实、忠诚、正直、值得尊敬的,但如果你爲了失败的事业或者一个即将覆亡的国家而战,就没有什么意义了。

        The Shu vs. Wei debate has always and will always rage, and the raging will always revolve around the Mandate of Heaven question (all questions of Liu Bei's character vs. Cao Cao's character are interesting but irrelevent when it comes to legitimacy issues). And Heaven only knows who really had the Mandate of Heaven.

    蜀VS魏的争论将一直并永远流行下去,永远流行下去的还会有天命(归谁)的问题(关于刘备与曹操性格对比的话题很有意思,但这和他们的正统问题毫无关联。)只有上天才知道谁才是真正的天命之子。




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by Morg on Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:24 pm

    引用Lady Zhuge的“我認為,關鍵你是從曹操的角度來說這些話的。”

        Well Hitler didn't believe that he was doing a good thing AFAIK, I think he, like other Germans, was frustrated by how well Jews were doing in Germany and decided to do something about it.

       据我所知,希特勒相信他所做的不是一件什么好事。我觉得他跟其他德国人一样,对可恶的犹太人在德国的所作所为感到失望,所以才决定(对他们)做点什么


     引用Lady Zhuge的“從希特勒的角度來看,他是在淨化人類做一件好事。”

        Again though that relies on the emperor's point of view. The emperor felt oppressed but was Cao Cao aware of that? The land was in chaos and I think it was entirely possible that Cao felt that he had to go to extremes to bring unity to the land, even if that meant treading on the emperor's toes along the way.

    從皇帝的角度來看,他感到壓抑,曹操意識到這些嗎?在這片混亂的土地上,我覺得曹操完全有可能感到他不得不採取極端的方式來統一天下,即便是把皇帝當成墊腳石也在所不惜。




    引用Lady Zhuge的“我覺得劉備的正統問題見仁見智。我尊重你的意見,但並不代表我認同。”

        Somehow I guessed that someone with Zhuge in their screen-name wouldn't agree with me

       我總覺得那些網名叫‘諸葛’的人可能不會贊同我


     引用Lady Zhuge的“如果他真的只為自己著想,我懷疑他是否會等這麼長時間或者需要他的屬下說服他來稱帝登基。”

    That can also be applied to Cao Cao. Cao never ascended the throne so you could argue that he knew that he woud be seen as a usurper or you can argue that Cao was serving the emperor. As for Liu Bei, it was a common courtesy to refuse office and it was seen as an insult to accept on the first offer. If Xuande had accepted on the first suggestion then he would have been looked down upon, therefore he would have had to be "pursuaded" even if he did actually want to be emperor. Therefore it isn't possible to decipher Xuande's true intentions from that one incident.

    對於曹操來說也是如此。曹操從未稱帝,所以你們才會爭論曹操知道自己會被當做謀逆還是效忠于皇帝。至於劉備,拒絕官員(要求他登基的請求)只是推辭而已。即便他真的想當皇帝,也一定會被‘勸諫’才可以。因此,想要從這一事情來證明劉備的真實目的是不可能的。


     引用Lady Zhuge的“還有,我認為劉備比曹操更合法,因為後者並不是為了漢朝以及皇帝著想。你可以說他是一個相當有抱負的傢伙。”

    Absolutely, but I think that Cao Cao fell prey to the power he held to a degree. As we all know, power corrupts.
    這是自然,不過我認為曹操被權利所束縛,不過還留有一些餘地。


     引用Layd Zhuge的“額,他們真的確定他(孫權)是紫色鬍子?”

    Green and purple compliment each other quite well I think...then again, I'm the guy with the gree and purple colourscheme in his attic...

    我想绿色和紫色是赞美对方很好……然后就是,我的朋友把他的阁楼的颜色设计成了蓝色和绿色。


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by Elven Fury on Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:03 pm

    Im a Shu ist all the way, by far in the early three kingdoms period it was Cao Cao and the Sun family. But once Liu Bei got Zhuge Liang the tables turned and Shu became the most "feared"/ powerful kingdom. i think everything started to go bad for Shu with the death of Guan Yu, which led to Yi Ling and then the death of Zhang Fei and Liu Bei, and Shu finally fell with the Death of Zhuge Liang. But i feel if these events had not happened so soon Shu would have won. but not to leave out Wei and Wu Wei had Sima Yi and Deng Ai, two great generals. and Wu had fearless generals such and Gan Ning and Huang Gai and Zhou Tai, they also had the Talents of Zhou Yu and Lu Xun, which also made them a formisable opponent... so for me my list of most powerful/favorite kingdoms its 1. Shu 2. Wu 3.Wei... but thats just me i guess...

    我一直是蜀国的粉丝,在很早的三国时期,曹操和孙氏家族比较强。但是一旦刘备得到了诸葛亮,形势就转变了,蜀成为最可怕的力量。我认为自从关羽死了之后,蜀国的所有事都开始变糟。夷陵失手,张飞身亡,刘备逝世,诸葛亮死后蜀国失败了。但是我觉得如果这些悲剧没发生的这么快,蜀国可能会赢。但也不排除魏和吴获胜的可能性,魏有司马懿和邓艾,两个伟大的将军;吴有甘宁、黄盖和周泰这些无畏的将领,他们还有天才的周瑜和陆逊这样可怕的对手。所以对我来说最强的/最喜爱的国家榜单是1.蜀,2.吴,3.魏~但我猜只有我才这么想。


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by Lord Sun Ce on Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:12 am

    Wu is the best. They may not have had the most success but they are the best. the fire attacks and the defection ploys (zhou Fang) and such. The best nuff said   

    吴是最好的。他们或许不是最成功的,但他们是最好的。火攻(应该是指赤壁吧)和卧底(周鲂,大家可以去百度一下,周鲂。)这是最好的证明。


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by Chibichan on Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:43 am

        Best: Wei...

        My personal favorite: Wu... because of the officers and their high defense that kept them alive for quite some time, even after Sun Quan died (they were destined to crumble after Sun Quan died...).

    最强的是:魏国

    我个人最喜欢:吴国……由于那些将军和他们强大防御能力让他们存活了相当长的时间,甚至在孙权死后(孙权死后,他们注定要崩溃……)


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by BlueDragon on Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:30 pm   

    Yay! At last some people acknoweldge Wu! Anyway, if you havent guessed, I'm supporting Wu all the way (I know my username is accosiated with Shu but I could'nt think of anything else). Back to the point, Wu had great generals and stratiegists (though not on par with Zhuge Liang) and held up well through the three kingdoms period.   

    耶!终于有人认可吴国了!无论如何你都不会猜到我一直都支持东吴。(我知道我的ID看起来倾向蜀汉,但没有其他含义)回到正题,东吴拥有优秀的将领和谋士(虽然与诸葛亮相比还有差距),在整个三国时期都成鼎足之势。


by Ma Zhi Xuan on Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:41 pm

回复楼上   

    Anyway, I'm a Shuist and so you can guess who I think is my personal favourite. But Wei is as good as if not a little bit better than Shu, although I don't like admitting it.   

    不管怎么说,我都支持蜀国,所以你可以猜一下我最喜欢的人物是谁。但是魏国更强大,比蜀国强不是一点半点。虽然我很不愿意承认这个事实。


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by PangDeGuy on Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:23 pm   

My favorite kingdom would depend on what point of view you see it from.     

我最喜欢的国家将取决于你从那种角度来看它。   

San Guo Yan Yi p.o.v:   

(从)三国演义的角度(来看):   

Shu- The troops are pretty keen after Zhuge Liang's training. The strategists and advisors are great, like Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, and Fa Zheng (I'm not very sure what Fa Zheng did since I haven't read the novel in a while, but I'm pretty sure he did something important). Shu's warriors are top-notch (Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, Huang Zhong, Zhao Yun, etc.) Shu actually could of united the Three Kingdoms if Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong would've lived longer.     

蜀国 - 诸葛亮培训后的部队变得相当锋利的,(蜀国的)战略家和顾问都是非常厉害的,像诸葛亮、庞统还有法正(我不太清楚法正到底怎么样,我有一段时间没读这部小说了。但是我非常确定他做了一件很重要的事)蜀国的战士也是顶尖的(张飞、关羽、黄忠、赵云等等)蜀国实际上可以统一三国,(前提是)如果诸葛亮和庞统能活得更久一点。   

San Guo Zhi p.o.v:   

(从)三国志的角度(来看)   

Wei- Cao Cao was a brilliant leader, and an excellent one, and was only portrayed as a villain in SGYY. He showed his capability in the war against Yuan Shao, defeating an enemy that vastly outnumbered him. Thus Wei's leader is good. Guo Jia, Xun Wenruo, Cheng Yu, and many more advisors were the brains of Wei, thus Wei's strategists are good. Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Xu Chu, Dian Wei, and many more we great warriors of Wei, and Zhang Liao was a pretty smart one also. Thus Wei's warriors are good.     




魏国 - 曹操是一个出色的领导者,他仅仅是在三国演义里被描绘成了一个恶棍。他用他的能力在战争中击败了实力远远超过他的袁绍(官渡之战)。这说明了魏国的领导者是最好的。郭嘉、荀彧、程昱还有许多充满智慧的魏国顾问们,这说明了魏国的战略家们是很好的。张辽、徐晃、许褚、典韦还有更多伟大的战士,而且张辽是一个相当聪明的人。这说明了魏国的战士也是最好的。


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by Rurouni Kenshin on Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:33 pm

    Wei is my favorite kingdom, and probably always will be. The influence that one man can get by a simple flip of his wrist is rather amazing. Cao Cao was quite influencial, though somewhat hasty. For a leader, he had the brains to(exaggeration) almost even out with Zhuge Liang. In Chi Bi he supposedly knew that ambushes were happening, yet he did nothing to stop them.

     魏国是我最喜欢甚至是永远喜欢的国家,一个男人的手腕轻叩所释放的影响力是那么奇妙。虽然有时会专横跋扈,曹操仍是个魅力十足的人。作为一个领导者,他的头脑(夸张)几乎等于诸葛亮。据说赤壁之战他应该是知道了会有伏击,但他并没有去阻止他们。

    On an officers note, I'd like to point out Zhang Liao. This one could defend He Fei with a fraction of Sun Quan's army. He struck fear into the hearts of nearly everyone he met.

    在上面的官员名单里,我想指出张辽。他用很少的军队对峙孙权并且保卫了合肥。几乎是每一个见到他的人都会心生恐惧。

    But the only thing that I can't stand is the humiliating deaths of the Wei officers. There were some graceful deaths(ex: Dian Wei) but most of them involved dying off the feild. Zhang Liao takes an arrow to the loins, which must be painful, and then dies later on. Xu Huang gets arrowed in the head, Xu Zhu dies of sickness, Pang De is executed, Zhang He is arrowed, Xiahou Yuan gets halved, and the list goes on. Some of the deaths are more than sad.

     我唯一不能忍受的是魏国官员羞耻地死去。有一些人死得其所(比如典韦),但大多数只是混吃等死。张辽腰部中箭,然后痛苦地死去。徐晃头部中箭,许褚死于痼疾,庞德被斩,张颌被箭射死,夏侯渊被劈成两半,名单还有很长...很多人死的都很悲壮。

    The advisors, though not matching with Kongming, were cunning and intelligent. Who can forget Guo Jia's act in the North? Xun Yu put forth many points that built the foundation of Wei, such as his cunning at Guandu. There was also Sima Yi and Deng Ai who fooled Teacher and Apprentice after a long while. Deng Ai was amazing in so many ways actually, Zhuge Liang probably couldn't match to this one's cunning.

    那些(魏国的)谋士们,虽然不能匹敌孔明(诸葛亮),但也很聪明和狡猾。谁能忘记郭嘉对北方的贡献?荀彧提出了许多计谋给魏国奠定了基础,比如他在官渡(之战)的表现。司马懿和邓艾与师傅(诸葛亮)和徒弟(姜维)周璇了很长一段时间。邓艾确实非常全面,诸葛亮可能都没他狡诈。


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by Guan Suo on Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:15 pm

     I Would say Wei is the best kingdom, followed by Wu and then Shu.

     我想说魏国是最强的国家,其次是吴和蜀国。

    I dont like Shu at all...now, what i dont see anymroe is why would someone go to great lengths to "restore" a govement that was ssooo corrupt that it caused mass suffering which led to a great upriseing(Yellow Turban). i believe it as a sin to want this kind of government back.

     我一点也不喜欢蜀国……我不明白为什么会有人竭尽全力想要‘恢复’一个大厦将倾的政权,汉朝带来了很多苦难,并导致了一场声势浩大的起义(黄巾)。我觉得妄图恢复这种政权是一种罪孽。

    Wei however brought prosperity to the people(dont get me wrong as Wu and Shu did as well but if Shu actully did "restore" the Han, whats to say it wont be corrupt again?) and Cao Cao/Pi/Rui were strong leaders and did not get pushed about too much by officals and kept to their goals. the Corrupt were dealt with as they wernt in the Han. Wei's upriseings where from treacherous people like Meng Da and Sima Yan.

     最起码魏国使人民安居乐业(不要说吴蜀两国也是如此,如果蜀国真的是为了‘匡扶’汉室,谁又能说它不会步汉朝的后尘),曹操、曹丕和曹睿都是开明的君主,没有被官员所摆布,并且目标坚定。汉朝没有他们这样的人物,所以难免会灭亡。魏国崛起的同时也出现了孟达和司马炎(注:此处可能笔误,应该是说司马懿,司马炎只是摘取了祖辈和父辈的果实)这样的逆臣。

    Cao Cao didnt beat about the bush to get what he wanted and this is what made him the most powerfull ruler of the period.Sun Quan did what he had to do...eventully. and Shu just hid behind "honour" which in my mind leads to nothing infact themselves it didnt mean much even if thats what it stood for. Liu Bei betrayed more people then Lu Bu(Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Zong,Liu Zhang and Sun Quan) and only attacked when peoples backs were turned(Liu Zhang, Cao Cao,when Liu Bei rebeled against Cao) he only got Jing through desception and after he used it to gain Yi and his promise to Sun Quan to give Jing back after Liu Qi died, he still didnt give it back. Shu deserved Wu's attack on Jing, i find it hypicritical that Shu would be really annoyed with Wu's "backstabbing" when Shu backstabbed ssoooo many more times.

    曹操对于他想要得到的东西从不转弯抹角,所以他才能成为这一时期最强大的君主。孙权只是尽了心力而已...在我来看,蜀国除了保留了(汉朝)的‘尊严’之外一无是处,如果它代表着什么,也不会太多。刘备比吕布出卖的人更多(曹操、袁绍、刘琮、刘璋和孙权),只是在他们转过身去的时候发动攻击(刘璋、曹操),他只是通过一纸(借据)得到了荆州,蜀国背叛了这么多次,却因为吴国的反目而大动肝火,这也太虚伪了吧。


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by Asellas on Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:53 pm

    I am going with Wu and my Auntie Wu never forced me to agree and I like them because of their talent, their ambition and because they didn't use many cheap strategies like Wei or Shu by making people defect excluding the Nanman campaign Wu always tried to win the hearts and make people join of their own free will even though when people refused they put them to death like Guan Yu.

    I also find their victories and battle interesting than Wei's or Shu's...

    我支持吴。我的姑妈吴从来不强迫我支持她的观点。我喜欢他们因为他们的才能,他们的雄心壮志,还因为他们从来不像魏和蜀一样用些下流手段使人叛变,除了南蛮叛乱。吴总是试着去赢得人才的心,而让他们自愿加入。即使那些人拒绝了要求,也不会像关羽一样致人死地。

    我觉得他们(吴国)的战斗要比魏国和蜀国有趣得多。


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by Shadowlink on Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:05 pm

     My fav kingdom is Shu! Shu all the Way Baby! u can say i'm been influence by the Propaganda! I mean You will alway remember Shu! I mean With Legendary people like Zhuge Liang,Guan YU and Zilong!

   我最喜欢的是蜀国!自始自终蜀都是我的宝贝!你可以说我是被宣传所影响到了!我的意思是说你将永远记得蜀国!我是说那些传奇的人,如诸葛亮、关羽、赵子龙!


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by Master Kongming on Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:48 am

    I really like the kingdom of Wei, as they had things the other kngdoms did not. For one, I think Cao Cao's Rise to power is one of the more interesting area's of the book and Strategy and Might in one is a good package.

    我真的很喜欢魏国,他们有其他(两个)国家没有的东西。例如,我认为曹操的发迹之路是这本书比较有趣的部分。

    Wei was the largest of the kingdoms, and the most powerful by far. Only the combined might of the 2 other kingdoms held them in check.

    魏国是最大和最强的国家。其他两个国家只有联合在一起才能组织它。


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by Li Ruiyue on Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:55 am

    My favourite force is Wu. They hold a steady amount of ground in the Southlands for a long while. They were well suited for naval warfare, which was a eavy advantage at the battle of Chi Bi.
    Wu gained many fine and talented strategists, namely Zhou Yu, Lu Meng and Lu Xun (my favourite character ). Zhou Yu unfortunatly died, but he got the kingdom of Wu off to a great start. Lu Xun continued his legacy after Lu Su and Lu Meng did.
    The Sun family who ruled over Wu also were descended from the great strategist Sun Tzu.
Those are the main reasons why I prefer Wu. They held the southlands under good rule, and they were the last kingdom to perish under Jin.

    我最喜欢的是吴国。他们拥有着一个稳定的地盘很久了。他们非常适合海战,在赤壁之战中这是一个相当大的优势。

    吴国拥有着许多精明和优秀的战略家,如周瑜、吕蒙和陆逊(我最喜欢的角色)。周瑜遗憾的死去了,但他为吴国开了个好头。不过陆逊继承了他的遗志之后还有鲁肃和吕蒙(困惑了……应该是先鲁肃再陆逊吧?)    统治东吴的孙家起源于伟大的军事家孙子

    这些就是我喜欢吴国的原因,他们很好的统治了南国,直到最后被晋所灭。


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by Liao Zhen on Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:27 pm

    My favorite kingdom is also Wu. For all of the Shu-loyalists out there Wu without a doubt gave Liu Bei an oppurtunity for land and existance. Wu was a smart kingdom, allying and annulling to fit themselves which was the most ambitious thing to do.

     我最喜欢的国家也是吴。对于这个论坛所有的蜀国的支持者来说,东吴无疑给了刘备一个对其领土诉求的机会(这里的机会应该指的是关羽被斩首,刘备举兵伐吴)。东吴很现实,结盟或者取消盟约都是为了自己的利益最大化。

    Many strongpoints of Wu are listed as follows.

     吴国的许多优点如下:

1. Strong Leaders, from Sun Jian to Sun Quan all of the people loved them.

   强有力的领导人,从孙坚到孙权,人民都很爱他们。

2. Protection from the river.

   河流(长江)的保护

3. A good collection of able and loyal warriors.

    有能力又忠诚的将士们。

4. Some of the best strategists.

    一批最好的战略家。

     A few mishaps of Wu are as follows.

     吴国的几个失误如下:

1. Their leaders were extemely unlucky, and brash.

   他们的领导人非常的不走运,脾气也非常暴躁。

2. Guan Yu's decapitated head (Lu Meng).

    将关羽斩首(吕蒙)

3. The river, they were protected but had a time of attacking.

   长江,保护了他们,但是(他们)攻击(别人)也更费精力。




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by didier on Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:15 pm

     Sorry to those who root for it, but I believe Wu was the weakest of the 3 Kingdoms. According to my opinion formed from SGYY, Sun Quan was a weak leader in comparison to Cao Cao and Liu Bei.

     对不起那些人的声援,但是我认为吴国是三国中最弱的。我的意见来自三国演义,孙权与曹操、刘备相比是一个软弱的领导人。

    Sun Jian and Sun Ce were valiant warriors who conquered and had no fear in battle, but after their kingdom was established, Sun Quan accomplished little of his own.

     孙坚和孙策都是作战勇猛,能够取得胜利的战士,不过在他们的王国建立起来之后,孙权几无建树。

    As SQ says himself when in despair before Yi Ling that before he had Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Lu Meng, and they were the key to his success. Lu Xun was the final great leader for Wu.

     正如孙权所说,他在夷陵之战前感到绝望,因为他已经没有了像周瑜、鲁肃和吕蒙这些获胜的关键(人物)。陆逊是东吴最后一位伟大的统帅。

    Under the leadership of SQ and his succesors, nothing was achieved North of the Great River, and Jingzhou was held at times by the men mentioned above.

    在孙权和他的继承人的领导下,在长江以北毫无建树,他们只不过偶尔控制着荆州。

    As for Wu's great leaders, Gan Ning was the last great general and Lu Xun was their last great strategist. If you've read the book you'll realise SQ was useless without these types of men as his accomplishments were after they died.

    吴优秀的领导者:甘宁是(吴国)最后一个伟大的将军,陆逊是他们最后一个伟大的军事指挥家。如果你读了这本书(三国演义),你就会意识到孙权没有那些男人他就是废物,因为在他们死后,他一事所成。


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by Dian Ziman on Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:54 pm

     My favourite kingdom is wei, at first I was attracted to it by its cool looking generals in dynasty warriors 2, then I researched the history and the novel which made me respect them even more. Dian wei is my favourite general because of his strength, bravery and loyalty. Xu zhu and Cao ang were both brave as well. Zhang liao and Zhang he were IMO the two best generals and the closest people to being gods of war(Maybe Deng ai too). I respect Guo jia for his high intelligence and IMO he surpasses kongming and would have probably saw through the ploy at Chi bi. I like Cao cao the best out of the leaders because of his intelligence and ambitions. Alot of the other officers were great too like Cao ren Xiahou yuan.

     I am not totally wei biased because I also respect the accomplishments of other people like Lu meng, Gan ning, Zhang fei and Wei yan etc.

    我最喜欢的国家是魏国,我是被真三国无双2里酷酷的将军造型吸引的,然后我研究了历史和小说(三国演义),这使我更加的尊敬他们。典韦是我最喜欢的将军,因为他的实力、勇气和忠诚,许诸和曹昂也都是勇敢的。在我看来,张辽和张颌是最好的将领,他们是战神。(也许邓艾也是)我尊敬郭嘉,因为他很有智慧,我认为他(的智慧)超越了诸葛亮,(如果他没死)赤壁那些伎俩将被他看破。我喜欢曹操,他是最好的,因为他是有野心的领导者、是有聪明才学的。还有很多其他伟大的人,比如曹仁、夏侯渊。

    我不是对魏特别偏爱,因为我也尊重其他有成就的人,比如吕蒙、甘宁、张飞和魏延等。




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by Lady Wu on Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:11 pm

    "You can't build up a kingdom without founding it, but it's futile to found a kingdom without the ability to build it up." One brother founded the kingdom, the other built it up. It's hard to say who's more important.

    The difference between Sun Ce and Sun Quan's times is that when Sun Ce was still roaming the land, there were few aggressively expanding forces in the region. Yan Baihu, Wang Lang, etc were small independent forces with little ambition and thus were easily knocked out by someone who had some military daring. However, when Sun Quan took over, Cao Cao's state was burgeoning and there wasn't really much room for expansion anymore northward.

    This is what Sun Quan accomplished:

(1) conquered the south. Sun Ce only held the land around the downriver Yangtze region, but SQ expanded to the south (which in a sense was harder because the Shanyue insurgents fought guerilla-style and it's hard to maintain their loyalty even when they were defeated).

(2) fended off two off the largest-scale invasion in 3k history: Chibi and Yiling. If his opponents were able to make such huge invasions, it is obvious that SQ had a hard time invading *them* as well.

(3) attempted numerous attacks on Hefei. They were failures, but he tried. I think he committed the fatal mistake of putting himself on the frontline, just as Cao Cao and Cao Pi both did when they tried to invade Wu. Once the ruler's company was routed, morale dropped seriously and there was no way to save the situation.

(4) maintained Wu's right to Jingzhou. He stood up for Wu when Liu Bei refused to return Jingzhou.

(5) oversaw numerous civil engineering projects: dams, irrigation, cities, shipyards, you name it, he made it.

(6) showed exceptional leadership in using his men to their fullest potential, even though they were not perfect.

    SQ was arguably the best leader. A good leader doesn't do everything himself (othewise he'd end up like Zhuge Liang), but rather keeps a lookout for potential stars and inspires those talents to serve himself. Considering how the Sun family wasn't prestigious or anything in the area, and had neither the emperor or an imperial pedigree to support them, it was quite amazing that so many talented people stayed loyal to Sun Quan. SQ was also the best politician, flexible in foreign affairs, keeping Wu afloat when the other two kingdoms looked on it with scorn as Wu lacked the "legitimacy" they had.

    What Sun Quan had to do was far more difficult than Sun Ce's work. However, since we always like the image of dashing young warriors rather than wise politicians maintaining the delicate balance of things in his own country and try not to gamble it off, Sun Ce/Jian stands out as a stronger character than Sun Quan.

     ‘如果没有建国的基础,你就不可能发展壮大。但是如果没有发展壮大的能力,你就不可能建立国家。’一个兄弟建立了国家,另一个把国家巩固起来。所以很难说谁更重要。

    孙策和孙权时代不同的是,当孙策还在颠沛流离的时候,这一地区几乎没有侵略性的扩张军队。严白虎、王朗等人都是目光短浅的小型割据势力,况且他们很轻易地就被拥有军事胆略的人所击破。而当孙权接手的时候,曹操的地盘迅速扩张,可以向北扩张的空间十分有限。
     孙权所取得的成就:
1、攻略江南。孙策仅仅控制了长江下游附近,但是孙权扩张到了南方(这不是一件容易的事,因为山越的叛军时常骚扰,即使将他们降服,也很难让他们归顺)
2、化解了三国时期两次最大规模的入侵:赤壁和夷陵之战。如果他的对手们有能力发起如此大规模的进攻,很显然孙权侵略他们也十分吃力。
3、屡次进攻合肥,但没有成功,不过他尽力了。我想他承认自己亲上战场是一个致命的错误,就如同曹操和曹丕侵略东吴时也是随军前往一样。一旦主公的部队溃败,士气就会被严重削弱,很难再力挽狂澜。
4、控制住了荆州。当刘备拒绝归还荆州的时候,他支持吴国。
5、多次视察民生工程:睡吧、灌溉、城市、船坞,凡事你能说出来的,他都做得到。
6、在使用部下和发挥他们最大的潜能上展现出了非凡的领导力,即使他们并不尽善尽美。
     孙权是最好的君主。一个好的君主不必凡事亲力亲为(否则他就会像诸葛亮一样累死),而是善于发现潜在的新星并鼓励这些天才为自己效命。孙家在江南根基尚浅,没有多少名望,皇帝和宗亲也不支持他们,即便如此,也有这么多天赋异禀的人才效忠于孙权。同时,孙权也是最优秀的政治家,处理外交张弛有度。由于东吴缺少其他两家的‘合法性’,魏蜀两国带着轻蔑的神情作壁上观的时候,孙权保证了东吴的稳定。
     孙权所作的事情比孙策更为艰难。然而,我们更喜欢年轻的勇士奋力拼杀的场景,而不是睿智的政治家维持自己国家的微妙的平衡,并避免进行豪赌,孙策和孙坚永不言败,他们的性格比孙权更强硬。

(转自龙腾)

PS:对甘宁有如此高的人气表示不解。
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2012-8-19 22:07:33

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“他有一雙可愛的眼睛”

那最后一帖是中国人写的吧……

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2012-8-19 23:16:31

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望天,原来国际人士也会为了这个鸡血
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2012-8-20 12:38:58

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深切怀疑这些是不是真洋人?

Lu Wei     Sima Hui      Lady Zhuge   Li Ruiyue     Liao Zhen     Lady Wu

这号的网名难道真是大鼻子?也许是华裔二代什么的
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2012-8-20 17:55:02

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好多都是华人的名字啊

顺便bluedragon 这个名字和蜀国有啥联系? 卧龙?
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2012-8-20 19:10:49

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他们通常是以演义为基准吧?
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2012-9-24 01:24:07

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三国播出的时候油管上很多洋人在看,居然还有人读过三国志的,不过更多的人是看的演义,甚至玩的无双OYZ,然后油管上各种混乱。
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2012-9-27 22:10:24

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县尉

  龙腾的?
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