查看: 2622|回复: 7

[编纂] 洋人煮酒论三国

2012-8-19 21:29:07






Best/Favourite Kingdom (and Why?) Discussion



魏国    100票

蜀国    121票

吴国     90票

         It seems like a lot of the threads about individual officers and individual events eventually turn into discussion about which kingdom is better or more powerful or more legitimate, etc. You get the idea. So I created this thread as a place for that kind of general discussion. Think Wei is the best, and want the rest of us to see the light? Post it here.

      貌似很多讨论个别人物或事件的帖子最终都变成了讨论哪个国家更好、更强大、更合法等等。說說你的想法。所以我开这个一般讨论的帖子。认为魏国最强,或者还有不同观点的,请跟帖 。



by Wizardman on Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:24 am

        Which kingdom is the best?

        Shu was great with the 5 tiger generals and the 3 brothers, but after Zhuge Liang's death, everything fell apart, and even Jiang Wei was   overshadowed by Shu's downfall.

        Wu had many intelligent and powerful warriors. It took Sun Quan's death for the cracks to show in Wu.

        Wei had many good people, mainly because everyone seemed to defect there. (Zhang Liao, Zhang He, etc.) Even after the death of all these greats, Caos Pi and Rui were still good, and they still had great officers in Deng Ai, Sima Yi's sons, Xiahou Mao, and others. Even though the Sima's rebelled after Sima Yi's death, it took that to damage Wei.

        Even though I'm slightly Shu-biased, I would say Wei was the strongest during the late 3-kingdoms period easily, but it's very hard to tell who would be better during the early three kingdoms period.


    蜀有伟大的5虎将和3兄弟,但诸葛亮去世后,一切都土崩瓦解了,即使是姜维也因为蜀国的覆亡而黯淡失色 【译者注:五虎将:关羽(字云长),张飞(字翼德),赵云(字子龙),马超(字孟起),黄忠(字汉升)。三兄弟:刘备、关羽、张飞】





by Lu Wei on Tue Dec 09, 2003 3:23 am

        Shu - definately not. Down with Shu! Zhuge Liang is slightly overrated, and while he was a great politician and a above-average commander, there is just no way he could have brought down Wei with his resources.

         Wu- second favorite. Good generals, good leaders. Like Shu, teh main handicap is location. They just didnt have the resources (or EXTREME brilliance) to conquer China.

        Wei- Best kingdom. Had the talent in early days (Cheng Yu, the Xuns, Jia Xu, Dian Wei, Xiahou Dun, Cao Ren), the middle times (Xu Huang, Sima Yi, Cao Cao himself, Cao Ren, Zhang Liao) and in late (Sima Yi and co., Deng Ai, Zhong Hui). Had the manpower, the resources, and the ability to conquer China, and under a different name (the Jin) they did. Cao Cao's pure skill brought the kingdom together, held it together for a long time, and passed it into good hands.

    蜀 - 绝对不是(最强的)。打倒蜀国!诸葛亮是被高估的人,虽然他是一位伟大的政治家、出色的(原文是:略高于平均水平的)指挥官,他没有办法利用他手中的资源击败魏国

    吴 - 第二喜欢的。有好的将领、好的主公。像蜀国,主要是(它的)位置是(一道)屏障。(吴)他们只是没有资源(或极度的智慧)来征服中国。

    魏 - 最强的国家。早期就很有潜力(程昱、荀彧、贾诩、典韦、夏侯惇、曹仁),中期(徐晃、司马懿、曹操自己、曹仁、张辽)还有晚期(司马懿和司马懿集团、邓艾、钟会)。有人力、资源并有能力征服整个中国,并且他们建立了新的王朝——晋朝。


by Sima Hui on Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:29 pm

        I'm a Shuist but I have to admit that Wei was the best.

        Generals: Xiahou Dun, Xiahou Yuan, Zhang He, Zhang Liao etc

        Strategists: Cheng Yu, Xun Wenruo, Xun You, Guo Jia and of course Sima Yi.

        To top it all off is the Man himself Cao Cao. What a great kingdom!






by Morg on Wed Dec 17, 2003 9:36 pm

        No contest really, Wei dominated from the beginning and was probably the closest to being legitimate considering Cao Cao didn't depose the emperor, choosing instead to memorialise the emperor instead. Yes, Cao Cao controlled the emperor but at least he had some semblance of a claim to legitimacy which is more than can be said for the other two.


by Lady Zhuge on Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:47 pm

      引用 Morg 的“是的,曹操控制了皇帝,但這樣他至少要比其他兩個(吳和蜀)在表面上更具有合法性。”        

    I don't understand how Cao Cao could legitimately control and oppress the emperor. Liu Bei was a descendent of the royal line, and he only declared himself emperor after Cao Pi overthrew Xian. I have nothing to say in defense of Sun Quan, though.   


by Morg on Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:33 pm

      引用Lady Zhuge的“我不明白曹操為什麼能合法的控制和欺壓皇帝”

        Perhaps I didn't explain clearly. SGYY illustrates how Cao Cao abuses his newfound power and how the emperor wishes to get rid of him (the edict hidden in the girdle). However, from Cao Cao's point of view, he continued to be a good servant of the Han, reuniting the land under the emperor.

        Therefore, while Cao Cao was opressing the emperor he still had a claim of legitimacy.

    也许是我没有解释清楚。SGYY(三国演义)有写曹操是怎麽滥用他新发现的各种权利(以皇帝的名义镇压四处叛军,客观上也造成了自己坐大 ),还有皇帝是如何希望摆脱他(衣带诏)。然后,从曹操的角度来看,他仍然是汉朝的好僕人、为皇帝守护疆土。


      引用Lady Zhuge的“劉備是一個皇室後裔,他僅在曹丕廢除了漢獻帝後才宣佈稱帝。”

      Indeed but I personally feel that Liu Bei's own ambition was by far more important to him than restoring the Han. I was a very big fan of Liu Bei's until I read SGYY which managed to convince me that the man was purely out for himself as he betrayed 'friend' after 'friend'. While Luo Guanzhong firmly establishes Liu Bei as the almighty messiah of the novel, parts of the book portray Xuande in a less than favourable light which in turn can easily lead the reader to question his motives. Therefore, I am not personally inclined to believe that Liu Bei wanted anything other than to establish his own kingdom.

      Just my opinion.

   但我個人覺得,劉備自己的野心比恢復漢朝更為重要。我以前是一個劉備的狂熱粉絲,直到三國演義(裏的故事)說服了我。這男人純粹的為了自己不斷的出賣“朋友”。雖然在羅貫中的(三國演義裏)把劉備寫成了全能救世主一樣的人,書中有很多地方對劉備的描寫不太有利,很容易讓讀者懷疑他的動機 ,因此我個人傾向於認為劉備為了建立屬於他的國家而不管其他事情(可能是在指恢復漢朝亦或是其他任何事)。


     引用Lady Zhuge的“可是對孫權我沒什麼好說的。”

    I do: He had lovely eyes


by Lady Zhuge on Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:41 pm


    I think the key words in what you've stated above is from Cao Cao's point of view. From Hitler's point of view, he was purifying the human race and doing a good thing. Does that mean his reason was legitimate, though? Being a good servant of the Han means being a true and loyal subordinate to the emperor, not oppressing him. The only exception I can perhaps forgive would be if the emperor was corrupt and bringing great sorrow and suffering to the people, but Xian was not guilty of that.



    I guess Liu Bei's true legitimacy is a matter of perspective and opinion. While I respect your opinion, I do not agree with it. If he was truly just out for himself, I doubt he would have waited so long or even needed his advisors' persuasion to ascend the throne.Also, I do not agree that Liu Bei was less legit than Cao Cao, considering the latter was certainly not out for the good of the Han or its emperor. You could say that he was a pretty ambitious guy himself.



    Ugh, but do they really match his supposedly purple beard?



by Kong Wen on Wed Dec 17, 2003 11:44 pm

    Cao Cao's claim to legitimacy was the passing of the Mandate of Heaven from the Han. He knew that Han was finished, yet he continued to try to hold the system together as long as possible while making his own changes and acting on his own. Kudos to Cao Cao for not just ousting the emperor and taking over himself.


        Liu Bei's actions were honourable and showed loyalty, dignity, integrity, etc., but such things don't matter if you're fighting for a losing cause or for an Empire whose time has already passed.


        The Shu vs. Wei debate has always and will always rage, and the raging will always revolve around the Mandate of Heaven question (all questions of Liu Bei's character vs. Cao Cao's character are interesting but irrelevent when it comes to legitimacy issues). And Heaven only knows who really had the Mandate of Heaven.



by Morg on Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:24 pm

    引用Lady Zhuge的“我認為,關鍵你是從曹操的角度來說這些話的。”

        Well Hitler didn't believe that he was doing a good thing AFAIK, I think he, like other Germans, was frustrated by how well Jews were doing in Germany and decided to do something about it.


     引用Lady Zhuge的“從希特勒的角度來看,他是在淨化人類做一件好事。”

        Again though that relies on the emperor's point of view. The emperor felt oppressed but was Cao Cao aware of that? The land was in chaos and I think it was entirely possible that Cao felt that he had to go to extremes to bring unity to the land, even if that meant treading on the emperor's toes along the way.


    引用Lady Zhuge的“我覺得劉備的正統問題見仁見智。我尊重你的意見,但並不代表我認同。”

        Somehow I guessed that someone with Zhuge in their screen-name wouldn't agree with me


     引用Lady Zhuge的“如果他真的只為自己著想,我懷疑他是否會等這麼長時間或者需要他的屬下說服他來稱帝登基。”

    That can also be applied to Cao Cao. Cao never ascended the throne so you could argue that he knew that he woud be seen as a usurper or you can argue that Cao was serving the emperor. As for Liu Bei, it was a common courtesy to refuse office and it was seen as an insult to accept on the first offer. If Xuande had accepted on the first suggestion then he would have been looked down upon, therefore he would have had to be "pursuaded" even if he did actually want to be emperor. Therefore it isn't possible to decipher Xuande's true intentions from that one incident.


     引用Lady Zhuge的“還有,我認為劉備比曹操更合法,因為後者並不是為了漢朝以及皇帝著想。你可以說他是一個相當有抱負的傢伙。”

    Absolutely, but I think that Cao Cao fell prey to the power he held to a degree. As we all know, power corrupts.

     引用Layd Zhuge的“額,他們真的確定他(孫權)是紫色鬍子?”

    Green and purple compliment each other quite well I think...then again, I'm the guy with the gree and purple colourscheme in his attic...



by Elven Fury on Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:03 pm

    Im a Shu ist all the way, by far in the early three kingdoms period it was Cao Cao and the Sun family. But once Liu Bei got Zhuge Liang the tables turned and Shu became the most "feared"/ powerful kingdom. i think everything started to go bad for Shu with the death of Guan Yu, which led to Yi Ling and then the death of Zhang Fei and Liu Bei, and Shu finally fell with the Death of Zhuge Liang. But i feel if these events had not happened so soon Shu would have won. but not to leave out Wei and Wu Wei had Sima Yi and Deng Ai, two great generals. and Wu had fearless generals such and Gan Ning and Huang Gai and Zhou Tai, they also had the Talents of Zhou Yu and Lu Xun, which also made them a formisable opponent... so for me my list of most powerful/favorite kingdoms its 1. Shu 2. Wu 3.Wei... but thats just me i guess...



by Lord Sun Ce on Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:12 am

    Wu is the best. They may not have had the most success but they are the best. the fire attacks and the defection ploys (zhou Fang) and such. The best nuff said   



by Chibichan on Fri Jan 02, 2004 8:43 am

        Best: Wei...

        My personal favorite: Wu... because of the officers and their high defense that kept them alive for quite some time, even after Sun Quan died (they were destined to crumble after Sun Quan died...).




by BlueDragon on Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:30 pm   

    Yay! At last some people acknoweldge Wu! Anyway, if you havent guessed, I'm supporting Wu all the way (I know my username is accosiated with Shu but I could'nt think of anything else). Back to the point, Wu had great generals and stratiegists (though not on par with Zhuge Liang) and held up well through the three kingdoms period.   


by Ma Zhi Xuan on Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:41 pm


    Anyway, I'm a Shuist and so you can guess who I think is my personal favourite. But Wei is as good as if not a little bit better than Shu, although I don't like admitting it.   



by PangDeGuy on Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:23 pm   

My favorite kingdom would depend on what point of view you see it from.     


San Guo Yan Yi p.o.v:   


Shu- The troops are pretty keen after Zhuge Liang's training. The strategists and advisors are great, like Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, and Fa Zheng (I'm not very sure what Fa Zheng did since I haven't read the novel in a while, but I'm pretty sure he did something important). Shu's warriors are top-notch (Zhang Fei, Guan Yu, Huang Zhong, Zhao Yun, etc.) Shu actually could of united the Three Kingdoms if Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong would've lived longer.     

蜀国 - 诸葛亮培训后的部队变得相当锋利的,(蜀国的)战略家和顾问都是非常厉害的,像诸葛亮、庞统还有法正(我不太清楚法正到底怎么样,我有一段时间没读这部小说了。但是我非常确定他做了一件很重要的事)蜀国的战士也是顶尖的(张飞、关羽、黄忠、赵云等等)蜀国实际上可以统一三国,(前提是)如果诸葛亮和庞统能活得更久一点。   

San Guo Zhi p.o.v:   


Wei- Cao Cao was a brilliant leader, and an excellent one, and was only portrayed as a villain in SGYY. He showed his capability in the war against Yuan Shao, defeating an enemy that vastly outnumbered him. Thus Wei's leader is good. Guo Jia, Xun Wenruo, Cheng Yu, and many more advisors were the brains of Wei, thus Wei's strategists are good. Zhang Liao, Xu Huang, Xu Chu, Dian Wei, and many more we great warriors of Wei, and Zhang Liao was a pretty smart one also. Thus Wei's warriors are good.     

魏国 - 曹操是一个出色的领导者,他仅仅是在三国演义里被描绘成了一个恶棍。他用他的能力在战争中击败了实力远远超过他的袁绍(官渡之战)。这说明了魏国的领导者是最好的。郭嘉、荀彧、程昱还有许多充满智慧的魏国顾问们,这说明了魏国的战略家们是很好的。张辽、徐晃、许褚、典韦还有更多伟大的战士,而且张辽是一个相当聪明的人。这说明了魏国的战士也是最好的。


by Rurouni Kenshin on Fri Jan 02, 2004 4:33 pm

    Wei is my favorite kingdom, and probably always will be. The influence that one man can get by a simple flip of his wrist is rather amazing. Cao Cao was quite influencial, though somewhat hasty. For a leader, he had the brains to(exaggeration) almost even out with Zhuge Liang. In Chi Bi he supposedly knew that ambushes were happening, yet he did nothing to stop them.


    On an officers note, I'd like to point out Zhang Liao. This one could defend He Fei with a fraction of Sun Quan's army. He struck fear into the hearts of nearly everyone he met.


    But the only thing that I can't stand is the humiliating deaths of the Wei officers. There were some graceful deaths(ex: Dian Wei) but most of them involved dying off the feild. Zhang Liao takes an arrow to the loins, which must be painful, and then dies later on. Xu Huang gets arrowed in the head, Xu Zhu dies of sickness, Pang De is executed, Zhang He is arrowed, Xiahou Yuan gets halved, and the list goes on. Some of the deaths are more than sad.


    The advisors, though not matching with Kongming, were cunning and intelligent. Who can forget Guo Jia's act in the North? Xun Yu put forth many points that built the foundation of Wei, such as his cunning at Guandu. There was also Sima Yi and Deng Ai who fooled Teacher and Apprentice after a long while. Deng Ai was amazing in so many ways actually, Zhuge Liang probably couldn't match to this one's cunning.



by Guan Suo on Fri Jan 02, 2004 7:15 pm

     I Would say Wei is the best kingdom, followed by Wu and then Shu.


    I dont like Shu at all...now, what i dont see anymroe is why would someone go to great lengths to "restore" a govement that was ssooo corrupt that it caused mass suffering which led to a great upriseing(Yellow Turban). i believe it as a sin to want this kind of government back.


    Wei however brought prosperity to the people(dont get me wrong as Wu and Shu did as well but if Shu actully did "restore" the Han, whats to say it wont be corrupt again?) and Cao Cao/Pi/Rui were strong leaders and did not get pushed about too much by officals and kept to their goals. the Corrupt were dealt with as they wernt in the Han. Wei's upriseings where from treacherous people like Meng Da and Sima Yan.


    Cao Cao didnt beat about the bush to get what he wanted and this is what made him the most powerfull ruler of the period.Sun Quan did what he had to do...eventully. and Shu just hid behind "honour" which in my mind leads to nothing infact themselves it didnt mean much even if thats what it stood for. Liu Bei betrayed more people then Lu Bu(Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Zong,Liu Zhang and Sun Quan) and only attacked when peoples backs were turned(Liu Zhang, Cao Cao,when Liu Bei rebeled against Cao) he only got Jing through desception and after he used it to gain Yi and his promise to Sun Quan to give Jing back after Liu Qi died, he still didnt give it back. Shu deserved Wu's attack on Jing, i find it hypicritical that Shu would be really annoyed with Wu's "backstabbing" when Shu backstabbed ssoooo many more times.



by Asellas on Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:53 pm

    I am going with Wu and my Auntie Wu never forced me to agree and I like them because of their talent, their ambition and because they didn't use many cheap strategies like Wei or Shu by making people defect excluding the Nanman campaign Wu always tried to win the hearts and make people join of their own free will even though when people refused they put them to death like Guan Yu.

    I also find their victories and battle interesting than Wei's or Shu's...




by Shadowlink on Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:05 pm

     My fav kingdom is Shu! Shu all the Way Baby! u can say i'm been influence by the Propaganda! I mean You will alway remember Shu! I mean With Legendary people like Zhuge Liang,Guan YU and Zilong!



by Master Kongming on Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:48 am

    I really like the kingdom of Wei, as they had things the other kngdoms did not. For one, I think Cao Cao's Rise to power is one of the more interesting area's of the book and Strategy and Might in one is a good package.


    Wei was the largest of the kingdoms, and the most powerful by far. Only the combined might of the 2 other kingdoms held them in check.



by Li Ruiyue on Mon Feb 16, 2004 11:55 am

    My favourite force is Wu. They hold a steady amount of ground in the Southlands for a long while. They were well suited for naval warfare, which was a eavy advantage at the battle of Chi Bi.
    Wu gained many fine and talented strategists, namely Zhou Yu, Lu Meng and Lu Xun (my favourite character ). Zhou Yu unfortunatly died, but he got the kingdom of Wu off to a great start. Lu Xun continued his legacy after Lu Su and Lu Meng did.
    The Sun family who ruled over Wu also were descended from the great strategist Sun Tzu.
Those are the main reasons why I prefer Wu. They held the southlands under good rule, and they were the last kingdom to perish under Jin.


    吴国拥有着许多精明和优秀的战略家,如周瑜、吕蒙和陆逊(我最喜欢的角色)。周瑜遗憾的死去了,但他为吴国开了个好头。不过陆逊继承了他的遗志之后还有鲁肃和吕蒙(困惑了……应该是先鲁肃再陆逊吧?)    统治东吴的孙家起源于伟大的军事家孙子



by Liao Zhen on Tue Feb 17, 2004 8:27 pm

    My favorite kingdom is also Wu. For all of the Shu-loyalists out there Wu without a doubt gave Liu Bei an oppurtunity for land and existance. Wu was a smart kingdom, allying and annulling to fit themselves which was the most ambitious thing to do.


    Many strongpoints of Wu are listed as follows.


1. Strong Leaders, from Sun Jian to Sun Quan all of the people loved them.


2. Protection from the river.


3. A good collection of able and loyal warriors.


4. Some of the best strategists.


     A few mishaps of Wu are as follows.


1. Their leaders were extemely unlucky, and brash.


2. Guan Yu's decapitated head (Lu Meng).


3. The river, they were protected but had a time of attacking.



by didier on Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:15 pm

     Sorry to those who root for it, but I believe Wu was the weakest of the 3 Kingdoms. According to my opinion formed from SGYY, Sun Quan was a weak leader in comparison to Cao Cao and Liu Bei.


    Sun Jian and Sun Ce were valiant warriors who conquered and had no fear in battle, but after their kingdom was established, Sun Quan accomplished little of his own.


    As SQ says himself when in despair before Yi Ling that before he had Zhou Yu, Lu Su and Lu Meng, and they were the key to his success. Lu Xun was the final great leader for Wu.


    Under the leadership of SQ and his succesors, nothing was achieved North of the Great River, and Jingzhou was held at times by the men mentioned above.


    As for Wu's great leaders, Gan Ning was the last great general and Lu Xun was their last great strategist. If you've read the book you'll realise SQ was useless without these types of men as his accomplishments were after they died.



by Dian Ziman on Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:54 pm

     My favourite kingdom is wei, at first I was attracted to it by its cool looking generals in dynasty warriors 2, then I researched the history and the novel which made me respect them even more. Dian wei is my favourite general because of his strength, bravery and loyalty. Xu zhu and Cao ang were both brave as well. Zhang liao and Zhang he were IMO the two best generals and the closest people to being gods of war(Maybe Deng ai too). I respect Guo jia for his high intelligence and IMO he surpasses kongming and would have probably saw through the ploy at Chi bi. I like Cao cao the best out of the leaders because of his intelligence and ambitions. Alot of the other officers were great too like Cao ren Xiahou yuan.

     I am not totally wei biased because I also respect the accomplishments of other people like Lu meng, Gan ning, Zhang fei and Wei yan etc.




by Lady Wu on Wed Feb 18, 2004 7:11 pm

    "You can't build up a kingdom without founding it, but it's futile to found a kingdom without the ability to build it up." One brother founded the kingdom, the other built it up. It's hard to say who's more important.

    The difference between Sun Ce and Sun Quan's times is that when Sun Ce was still roaming the land, there were few aggressively expanding forces in the region. Yan Baihu, Wang Lang, etc were small independent forces with little ambition and thus were easily knocked out by someone who had some military daring. However, when Sun Quan took over, Cao Cao's state was burgeoning and there wasn't really much room for expansion anymore northward.

    This is what Sun Quan accomplished:

(1) conquered the south. Sun Ce only held the land around the downriver Yangtze region, but SQ expanded to the south (which in a sense was harder because the Shanyue insurgents fought guerilla-style and it's hard to maintain their loyalty even when they were defeated).

(2) fended off two off the largest-scale invasion in 3k history: Chibi and Yiling. If his opponents were able to make such huge invasions, it is obvious that SQ had a hard time invading *them* as well.

(3) attempted numerous attacks on Hefei. They were failures, but he tried. I think he committed the fatal mistake of putting himself on the frontline, just as Cao Cao and Cao Pi both did when they tried to invade Wu. Once the ruler's company was routed, morale dropped seriously and there was no way to save the situation.

(4) maintained Wu's right to Jingzhou. He stood up for Wu when Liu Bei refused to return Jingzhou.

(5) oversaw numerous civil engineering projects: dams, irrigation, cities, shipyards, you name it, he made it.

(6) showed exceptional leadership in using his men to their fullest potential, even though they were not perfect.

    SQ was arguably the best leader. A good leader doesn't do everything himself (othewise he'd end up like Zhuge Liang), but rather keeps a lookout for potential stars and inspires those talents to serve himself. Considering how the Sun family wasn't prestigious or anything in the area, and had neither the emperor or an imperial pedigree to support them, it was quite amazing that so many talented people stayed loyal to Sun Quan. SQ was also the best politician, flexible in foreign affairs, keeping Wu afloat when the other two kingdoms looked on it with scorn as Wu lacked the "legitimacy" they had.

    What Sun Quan had to do was far more difficult than Sun Ce's work. However, since we always like the image of dashing young warriors rather than wise politicians maintaining the delicate balance of things in his own country and try not to gamble it off, Sun Ce/Jian stands out as a stronger character than Sun Quan.




回复 举报
2012-8-19 22:07:33








回复 举报
2012-8-19 23:16:31






回复 举报
2012-8-20 12:38:58







Lu Wei     Sima Hui      Lady Zhuge   Li Ruiyue     Liao Zhen     Lady Wu

回复 举报
2012-8-20 17:55:02







顺便bluedragon 这个名字和蜀国有啥联系? 卧龙?
回复 举报
2012-8-20 19:10:49






回复 举报
2012-9-24 01:24:07






回复 举报
2012-9-27 22:10:24






回复 举报


Archiver|手机版|Langya.Org ( 浙ICP备05062527号-1 )

GMT+8, 2020-9-18 15:57 , Processed in 0.059109 second(s), 20 queries .

Powered by Discuz! X3.4 Licensed © 2001-2012 Comsenz Inc. Design by 360cd.cn